Tuesday, 2 September 2014

Dev Logs: Second Encounter/Дневники разработчиков: Второе пришествие
 

Good news everyone! Team editor, Steel, is back on the groove!

First and the most important piece of news: beta version of first act of our mod is coming soon! And I mean - very, very soon. But I'd like to warn you that we've created a couple of different versions of first act and not yet decided which one shall we use. That's why in beta version you may see some scenes that may not present in final release.

We know how you want to learn anything about our future mod, and we shall grant your wish. This is a piece of text from the version of first act, which will (probably) appear in beta version. You could call it pre-alpha. We intentionally left old versions of sprites in this video, everything is already polished and finished - it's just for history, as we can say.

And last but not least: 4ls have finally got us. Yes, that's how it really goes. 4ls really oppose our mod development. Recently our artist was forced to delete some of her works from DeviantArt because of 4ls complaint. It did not surprise to me, but without any conversation such aggressive movements are absolutely unacceptable. I had a better opinion on them. That's why Ajoura, Freon and I are ready for a conversation and offer 4ls to discuss all the claims in Skype with their representative. We also have a professional translator on our side, who, I suppose, will help us to bring our differences to compromise.

33 comments:

  1. Печально, что разработчики так к этому относятся. Ей-богу, что за люди...

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  2. По-моему, 4LS ведут себя как мудаки. Отталкивайтесь от лицензии, а не от того, что кто-то против. Их мнение имеет вес, но не имеет "права вето".

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  3. There was conversation...on this very blog. You said they probably didn't care. They said they did and asked you to stop. You said you didn't care about their opinion, you were going to go on anyway and there was nothing they could do about it. So why is it unacceptable when they get some stuff removed from a site like Deviantart? I'd say it was perfectly warranted after the discussion in the July-comments section. You already gave them the middle finger, so why are those "aggressive movements" unacceptable?

    And more importantly, what's there to compromise? They are within their right to determine how their work gets used. Saying "let's discuss this" is like someone stealing your computer, you protesting and the thief saying: "Okay, let's talk about it. I'll only steal your monitor and hard drive and you can keep the rest." That's not much of a compromise. A compromise goes both ways.

    If you really want to compromise AND get your work out, there's a simple solution. Instead of making a mod and distributing it, make a Youtube video out of it that people can watch. The result will be the same and you won't be violating 4LS's license. There are voiceover projects for KS that do something similar and the development team mentioned they don't mind.

    Of course, if "compromise" to you means "them being forced to agree with us and us not having to give on a single thing", then there's not much more to say.

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    1. I love you ^_^
      Steel didn`t listen to me. maybe, he`ll listen to you. `cause it`s awful idea.

      -- homk

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    2. Даже не надейтесь, я хочу читать текст, а не фтыкать в видео.

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    3. It's simple. We just do not agree with terms of the license.

      Counting the fact 4LS have already tried to repress various mod makers several times, we - as a Russian team - count these terms unacceptable and worthy of rebuilding.
      I hope 4LS won't be so dumb-minded and stubborn as Russian government and will talk to us in equal rights.

      – Ajoura

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    4. I don't agree with taxes. But I pay them anyway. I could throw a tantrum about how I don't agree with the way my tax rate is calculated, I could refuse to pay taxes, I could tell the IRS: "Hey, let's sit down together and have a nice discussion about why you need to create a special tax bracket just for me." But that's not how the world works.

      Same with 4LS. Those license terms have been there for years. They're pretty simple. No ripping stuff. No modifying existing stuff. Fan art and fan fiction are okay for that reason. It's possible to work around the license. You can still use the RenPy engine. Create your own backgrounds and your own music. You can use the Rika and Saki characters and even the other characters as long as the sprites you made for them are your own.

      What compromise can you offer 4LS? The only reason you're taking stuff from the original game is because it saves you time. Since 4LS created all the assets for KS themselves, I don't think the argument "We don't want to spend as much time on our project as you have." is gonna impress them.

      You say you want to talk, but you have no arguments why they should alter their license specifically to cater to you guys. The only argument I've heard is: "because we want them to". That's no argument. That's just a tantrum. 4LS made KS, they can decide how their property is used by others. There's nothing unfair about not always getting what you want.

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    6. I'll give you an answer, but please understand that while I'm going to express the general position of 4LS on the subject, I'm speaking on my initiative alone.

      It's unfortunate that you do not agree with the terms of our license, but you don't get to negotiate different ones since you're not the people who spent a few years of their lives making KS, we are. Ignoring them just makes you a petty criminal.

      I personally find it very hypocritical that you find "aggressive action unacceptable" after you ignored our protest on this very blog. We have every intention of defending our works and rights, and using whatever tools we are afforded by the law is the least we could be expected to do.

      I'll say it to you again: cease and desist immediately. After you do so as a token of good faith there MIGHT be some possibility of discussion.

      -Silentcook, 4LS

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  5. Ахахах, удалили с девиан арта. Это круто конечно но не нарушает ли это собсна закон? Мне, что уже нельзя на бумаге рисовать любимых персонажей и выкладывать их в сеть? Ой странные эти 4ls, они не имеют ни копейки ибо игра бесплатная но при этом делать, что-то свое нельзя потому что... А черт его знает почему, если провести аналогию с гуглом то ниодного кастомного билда бы не существовало для этой открытой и бесплатной ОС

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  6. Your attitude towards the original creators of this work infuriates me, as does your cavalier attitude towards the original content I created in my fanfic. I want you to know that I do not and will not in any way support or promote your project.

    themocaw

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  7. Интересное у них предложение. И смешное - прекратите и тогда поговорим. Поговорим о чём? О том, что "ха-ха, смотрите, мы всё-таки победили и никто не смеет трогать наше"? Или о чём-то ещё?
    Называть бескорыстную работу других людей "лицемерием" и устраивать такие пляски в блоге, чтобы в очередной раз показать что они "несогласные" - это смехотворно и мерзко. Ещё более смехотворным и мерзким является утверждение про "мелких преступников".
    Нет ничего более дерьмового в разработчике, который на корню пытается остановить (повторюсь, бескорыстное) развитие своего творения силами энтузиастов. Будто бы этот мод всем насильно запихивать будут, честное слово.

    Пусть обмажутся своей лицензией, у вашей работы будет до чёрта поклонников.

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    1. Обратите внимание, как разнится реакция англо- и русскоязычных пользователей.
      Мы сами проделали достаточно емкую работу и намерены продолжать ее и в дальнейшем. Просто так взять все и бросить русская команда не может.
      А, как говорил один великий русский комик, "нас-то драли, и ничего, как видите, целое поколение выросло".

      Не переключайтесь. Мы вас всех уважаем.

      – Ajoura

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  9. Ajoura, you're among the people your group designated for discussion. Should we take that as your group's answer? Because our response above can now be taken as our official stance.

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    1. The opinion of the group lies not only on me, but on our editor, writer and coder.
      I am just a composer who also speaks English.
      You'd like to wait for our collective response.

      – Ajoura

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    2. Let be beeline: Steel (editor) want it. Not me (writer and coder). Not other editor. Just Steel. And you. And I said to you all what I thinking about your brains.

      --homk.

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    3. You can now express your opinion as long you have an opportunity, genius.

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    4. You guys can still leave the project if you don't like it, you know.

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  10. Серьезно, ребят, вы, по сути, послали их словами "А ничего все-равно вы нам за это не сделаете", и теперь ожидаете от них "Конструктивного диалога". Как уже сказал их представитель, это ничто иное, как лицемерие. Я не согласен с политикой 4LS относительно модов, и считаю, что вы сделали правильно, решив на нее наплевать, но требовать от них в такой ситуации уступок совершенно неприемлемо. А удаление постов на девианте - это то немногое, как они могут вам навредить, поэтому их тоже стоит понять.

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  11. If 4LS' words mean nothing to you, then think what the main heroines of the game you "adore" and "enjoy" would've said about it. Emi or Lilly wouldn't have approved your rude and unpleasant behaviour, you know.

    And, btw, i'm Russian and i'm ashamed we live in the same country.

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    1. Jigoro would. Go and be ashamed somewhere else.
      Еще на тему "а что бы подумали персонажи" никто не давил вроде, ты первый.

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    2. Что там Джигоро, Кенджи бы сам одобрил смену "погханых" баб под свой уклад.
      Еще бы и спел песню Ансамбля Христа Спасителя про феминисток.

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  12. It's arguable - he is a boastful, self-absorbed and blunt, but we can't just assume he approves taking other people's property because of that.

    So, basically your position is:
    1)It's okay to commit crime as long as there is no one to punish you
    2)It's okay to shape, change and interpret laws however you see fit

    And then you go outside at midnight and get robbed by a man with the same position. It is not a threat, it's just an example of what could happen when you adopt such an attitude en masse. It's not like anyone in here can actually stop you - but if KS community, along with the gamedevs(save for a few Russian fans) despise the game even before it is released, then _maybe_ you do something wrong. Just... think about it.

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    1. ^ that was supposed to be a reply to a previous post. So much for my angry midnight writing >.<

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    2. Well, that's how we live in Russia. No stereotypes, that's really how it goes.

      Say about wrong. We already cleared the fact we are not modifying game files, we only allow _you_ to do it with our patch. And we are not going to change any characters and any lines. We are just going to add a sideway option.

      If 4LS do not want us to touch naked codes of their precious waifu, we can assure you we won't.

      BTW, soon I'll get a personal post. You would like to post your opinion there.

      – Ajoura

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    3. Probably 'cause of 4LS' propaganda to hate those filthy Russians who dare to touch their precious Katawa Shoujo with their filthy claws? (:

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    4. Yup.
      Because, as everyone knows, we're all drunken psychopaths riding bears and wielding balalaikas.

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    5. That's how _you_ live in Russia, thank you very much. And if you take the word "steal" and replace it with "borrow" or "lend", it doesn't really matter which word you use - it's the result that matters. And it doesn't really matter if you distribute the modified game files yourself, or just make a patch - it's just strawman word-juggling, and in the end, it is still called theft.

      Don't get me wrong, though - i really admire your hard work and talent. I just think that you're much better of making your own game from scratch. Don't try to ride the bandwagon of 4LS' popularity, and make a whole mountain of original and interesting content instead, just like "Everlasting Summer" did. Oh well - sorry if I got too angry over there. Good luck, guys - you'll need it. :-)

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    6. Word-juggling or not, one fact is to be differed from another.
      If you are too lawful for this, you have a choice not to download.

      Also, there could be no theft, because nobody loses anything. The "theft" in information meaning occurs only when someone barges in your room and takes you HDD. You may be sure we won't do this neither to 4LS, nor for you.

      Anyway. New post have already appeared, check it out.

      – Ajoura

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    7. If someone were to hack into your computer/server, take all the music files and sprites you've worked on and uses them for their own project without your permission, I assume you'd be perfectly fine with that? It's not theft after all, since you still possess the files as well. By the way, why haven't you uploaded all your graphics and songs yet? There may be other people who want to use them too and it's not fair that nobody can use your work but you.

      I doubt many people complain because of some law. For most people, it's probably about respect and the ability to have some say in how the fruit of one's labor is and isn't used.

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    8. Except for the fact that all the music files and sprites 4LS've worked on got to my computer with their permission since I downloaded them from their web site. Moreover, the source code of Katawa Shoujo and everything else that is inside of it is publically available. Hence your example is inept.

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